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Old 11-17-2012, 10:50 AM   #31 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Beatnik Husker View Post
considering that something like 75%+ of players currently on Div1 rosters will never play a professional snap.
My math is horribly off here... I'm sure. And probably NOT in my favor.
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Old 11-17-2012, 12:07 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Beatnik Husker View Post
or IF they were even drafted at all...



Thats a horrible measure, considering that something like 75%+ of players currently on Div1 rosters will never play a professional snap.

Secondly, the SEC has 14 teams... how many other conferences have 14 teams? Your unbiased numbers are biased from the start.

Thirdly, you're also NOT taking into consideration whether or not an individual player is a STARTER or 2nd/3rd string... Not important you say? Of course it is, when you consider that the SEC is a football factory that turns out football players... when you graduate/move on from an SEC school after a 4 or/5 year stint as a backup RG at Ole Miss your career opportunities are limited, and a six figure base salary to be a backup for something you've done your whole life seems like a good deal, when option B is night manager at the Safeway.

The biggest misconception about players in the NFL is that they are ALL somehow UNIQUELY talented, when the truth is that most players in the NFL test out with roughly the same numbers... obviously there always outliers, (Mike Vick at QB... Jimmy Graham at TE... Adrian Peterson at RB) who take their unique talent/abilities and turn it into huge careers... but for the most part, the talent level in the NFL is pretty much even across the board.

Which is to say... the "MOST TALENTED PLAYERS" are not necessarily the "BEST PLAYERS".

The BEST players in the NFL are typically guys who work harder than the competition... train harder than the competition... and play harder than the competition.

Randy Moss may have been the "most talented" WR on the field at any given time... but I can probably find you footage from 10+ games where he was outplayed and outworked by ALL the other WRs in the game.

Jerry Rice was never the fastest or most talented WR on the field, he just outworked eveybody... and he never took a snap off... and he was where he was supposed to be whenever Montana/Young needed him.
25% of CFB players only make it to the NFL. Now with saying that and understanding that, those numbers have always fluctuated. That number has always shown this or that conference based on sheer demands and needs of those NFL teams based on those factors due to its natural process(the draft) through history. Upper management at this level knows that everyone and anyone is a gamble due to achieving sustainable health being the top factor, deciding who fits their desires for position of need!

Beatnick has several points here that are very valid and to the point. However for now, it does appear that the SEC leads in this category but the relevance is only termed by need of a specified NFL team and one's own natural termed football career! A lot of it is simply luck. Fitting the type/position of a player to meet a specified need. Luck of the draw, if you will! CS does touch on the fact that it is all business and this is pretty much the truth! All individuals who make it to the NFL will get their shot and generally only once, but not limited to a run of luck, if given another chance to meet a need for some other team. All of this is a roll of the dice! It is all about timing and being the right guy, in the right place and time!

We have all seen where you know this certain player has proven to be an NFL talent but ends up washed out after a couple more seasons go by! It is cut throat business and you provide good production with a certain interested team or you don't! It is simple as that! Not too much speculation in that business because they can't afford to, there are precise budgets at the upper level in this sport! There has to be, "The Bottom Line!"... In all facets of the sport itself and with the business that goes with it. Too competitive in the market for a team not to be winning in the NFL!...

Not too long from now, you'll see another conference take the lead but it often has nothing to do with who puts out the overall best talent! It is about what that talent does when given the NFL opportunity!

It would be interesting to see, who represents what conferences on who has the most starters presently in the NFL!...

I concur Husker... good perspective! I know too many who have played at the pro level! I have heard this understanding and perspective from them for years and years!...

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Old 11-17-2012, 01:31 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Beatnik Husker View Post
or IF they were even drafted at all...



Thats a horrible measure, considering that something like 75%+ of players currently on Div1 rosters will never play a professional snap.

Secondly, the SEC has 14 teams... how many other conferences have 14 teams? Your unbiased numbers are biased from the start.

Thirdly, you're also NOT taking into consideration whether or not an individual player is a STARTER or 2nd/3rd string... Not important you say? Of course it is, when you consider that the SEC is a football factory that turns out football players... when you graduate/move on from an SEC school after a 4 or/5 year stint as a backup RG at Ole Miss your career opportunities are limited, and a six figure base salary to be a backup for something you've done your whole life seems like a good deal, when option B is night manager at the Safeway.

The biggest misconception about players in the NFL is that they are ALL somehow UNIQUELY talented, when the truth is that most players in the NFL test out with roughly the same numbers... obviously there always outliers, (Mike Vick at QB... Jimmy Graham at TE... Adrian Peterson at RB) who take their unique talent/abilities and turn it into huge careers... but for the most part, the talent level in the NFL is pretty much even across the board.

Which is to say... the "MOST TALENTED PLAYERS" are not necessarily the "BEST PLAYERS".

The BEST players in the NFL are typically guys who work harder than the competition... train harder than the competition... and play harder than the competition.

Randy Moss may have been the "most talented" WR on the field at any given time... but I can probably find you footage from 10+ games where he was outplayed and outworked by ALL the other WRs in the game.

Jerry Rice was never the fastest or most talented WR on the field, he just outworked eveybody... and he never took a snap off... and he was where he was supposed to be whenever Montana/Young needed him.
The SEC's 12 teams prior to this season already had the most players in the NFL, adding Mizzou and TAMU has nothing to do with that fact.
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Old 11-17-2012, 01:36 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by LandRun89' View Post
25% of CFB players only make it to the NFL. Now with saying that and understanding that, those numbers have always fluctuated. That number has always shown this or that conference based on sheer demands and needs of those NFL teams based on those factors due to its natural process(the draft) through history. Upper management at this level knows that everyone and anyone is a gamble due to achieving sustainable health being the top factor, deciding who fits their desires for position of need!

Beatnick has several points here that are very valid and to the point. However for now, it does appear that the SEC leads in this category but the relevance is only termed by need of a specified NFL team and one's own natural termed football career! A lot of it is simply luck. Fitting the type/position of a player to meet a specified need. Luck of the draw, if you will! CS does touch on the fact that it is all business and this is pretty much the truth! All individuals who make it to the NFL will get their shot and generally only once, but not limited to a run of luck, if given another chance to meet a need for some other team. All of this is a roll of the dice! It is all about timing and being the right guy, in the right place and time!

We have all seen where you know this certain player has proven to be an NFL talent but ends up washed out after a couple more seasons go by! It is cut throat business and you provide good production with a certain interested team or you don't! It is simple as that! Not too much speculation in that business because they can't afford to, there are precise budgets at the upper level in this sport! There has to be, "The Bottom Line!"... In all facets of the sport itself and with the business that goes with it. Too competitive in the market for a team not to be winning in the NFL!...

Not too long from now, you'll see another conference take the lead but it often has nothing to do with who puts out the overall best talent! It is about what that talent does when given the NFL opportunity!

It would be interesting to see, who represents what conferences on who has the most starters presently in the NFL!...

I concur Husker... good perspective! I know too many who have played at the pro level! I have heard this understanding and perspective from them for years and years!...
I think the most perspective can be gained by looking at most starters/players by TEAM ... And not conference. Id bet that teams like Ohio state... Texas... wisconson... Oklahoma... Usc... and Nebraska have thier fare share of representation. And all would be in top 25 by players per team.
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Old 11-17-2012, 04:53 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Beatnik Husker
or IF they were even drafted at all...Thats a horrible measure, considering that something like 75%+ of players currently on Div1 rosters will never play a professional snap.
The point is that the players are in the NFL period. You can't be terrible in the NFL, you can stink compared to your peers, but you've still got to be pretty damn good JUST to make the roster. You can say taht 75% of players in Div 1 won't make the NFL, and that's fine. It's just that of the 25% that DO make the NFL, the SEC makes up the lions share of that 25%.

Quote:
Secondly, the SEC has 14 teams... how many other conferences have 14 teams? Your unbiased numbers are biased from the start.
14 as of this season... Since players in the NFL right now came from the 12 team SEC, what's your point? The stats actuely showed an average of nearly 3.5 players per team for the SEC, with those numbers dropping by 1 at the next level for the ACC, then roughly .5 for every one mentioned after that.

Quote:
Thirdly, you're also NOT taking into consideration whether or not an individual player is a STARTER or 2nd/3rd string... Not important you say? Of course it is, when you consider that the SEC is a football factory that turns out football players... when you graduate/move on from an SEC school after a 4 or/5 year stint as a backup RG at Ole Miss your career opportunities are limited, and a six figure base salary to be a backup for something you've done your whole life seems like a good deal, when option B is night manager at the Safeway.

The biggest misconception about players in the NFL is that they are ALL somehow UNIQUELY talented, when the truth is that most players in the NFL test out with roughly the same numbers... obviously there always outliers, (Mike Vick at QB... Jimmy Graham at TE... Adrian Peterson at RB) who take their unique talent/abilities and turn it into huge careers... but for the most part, the talent level in the NFL is pretty much even across the board.
They're on the team... They're in the league, stated that point myself, so you're not stating anything that wasn't put right out there. But they're still on the field on a team... Other conferences can't even get their players on the practice squads or special teams... That's why I said playing is playing.

Quote:
Which is to say... the "MOST TALENTED PLAYERS" are not necessarily the "BEST PLAYERS".
Agreed, I didn't say they had the BEST players only that the talent that they have overall per team is greater then those of the other teams/conferences. Lets face it, NFL teams are NCAA all-star teams, for better or worse.

Quote:
The BEST players in the NFL are typically guys who work harder than the competition... train harder than the competition... and play harder than the competition.

Randy Moss may have been the "most talented" WR on the field at any given time... but I can probably find you footage from 10+ games where he was outplayed and outworked by ALL the other WRs in the game.

Jerry Rice was never the fastest or most talented WR on the field, he just outworked eveybody... and he never took a snap off... and he was where he was supposed to be whenever Montana/Young needed him.
Agreed, there are a lot of great players from small schools out in the NFL, it's just that their teammates aren't out there with them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WeWantTheVest
The amount of active players on NFL rosters has next to no relevance in college football.
Oh I think it does... If it didn't MAC would have just as many players out there as the power conferences.

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How many Heisman winners have had NFL careers even worth mentioning? Only a handful at best. Look at players like Jason White, Troy Smith, Tim Tebow, etc. If you reverse that look at players like Tom Brady, Demarcus Ware, Charles Tillman, etc. How many of those SEC players are starting, or even making an impact? How many benefit from the team they play for? How many sit on the bench or play kickoffs? Who knows, I sure don't. Point is, you really can't use anything in the NFL as an argument in college discussions.
Well there's a two part answer to this, in my opinion. We were talking about removing the BCS biased information. What, if not the Heisman, is a better indication of this bias? The reason a lot of those Heisman players become busts or average players is because they often come from smaller conferences, playing against less talented players. When they are truely put to the test in the pros, they look average at best... And some times, sub par. This fact is actuely a product of the BCS actuely building UP teams in smaller conferences, when in reality, they shouldn't get the rep that they got those seasons. The second part to that is that Tom Brady cheated to get his rep. And whom else joined Tillman and Ware from their teams? Bama players can say that last year they had 11 guys from their team make it into the NFL... That's just one example though. It's easier to stand out against less talent then it is to stand out against better players... How many of those Heismans that you refered to actuely came from the SEC? Tebow, whom for better or worse again, is a pretty damn good football player who's style, more so than his ability, is what's keeping him out of a starting position.

But don't take it from me...

2002 Carson Palmer USC Quarterback NOT SEC, not a bust, not a stud either.

2003 Jason White Oklahoma Quarterback NOT SEC, who the hell is he?

2004 Matt Leinart USC Quarterback NOT SEC, yeah, those DBs from the SEC in the NFL are pretty tough.

2005 Nobody, should have been Bush, NOT SEC, you could call him a bust given where he was taken.

2006 Troy Smith Ohio State Quarterback, NOT SEC, you could call him a bust.

2007 Tim Tebow Florida Quarterback FROM SEC. Can't call him a bust, he has a winning record and everyone wants to see him play. Revived the Broncos last year and got them to the playoffs.

2008 Sam Bradford Oklahoma Quarterback NOT SEC. Can't call him a bust, there's nobody there around him. Too early to say.

2009 Mark Ingram, Jr. Alabama Running back FROM SEC. Came off of knee surgery. After a lack luster rookie season, he's a regular contributor for the Saints. Average player... Still very young. ONLY WINNER IN BAMA's HISTORY!!!

2010 Cam Newton Auburn Quarterback FROM SEC... Cam!!!

2011 Robert Griffin III Baylor Quarterback... Gotta hand it to him, the guy's a gamer, if he can stay healthy now that he's playing real talent week in and week out, he looks like he'll be great for a long time.

In fact, if we look at decent conferences that have produced the least amount of Heisman busts, the SEC is right at the bottom of that list.

Again, we have to agree that the players in the NFL are for better or worse, the best that the NCAA have to offer. Because they are... The fact that there are more SEC players in the league means that the SEC turns out more pro-caliber players, be they starters of otherwise, than any other conference in the courtry means that the caliber of games is of a higher quality in that conference.

NOTE: If some of the points made in my return were made already, sorry... I just went to my post and read the quotes about it and replied.
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Old 11-17-2012, 05:20 PM   #36 (permalink)
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I think the most perspective can be gained by looking at most starters/players by TEAM ... And not conference. Id bet that teams like Ohio state... Texas... wisconson... Oklahoma... Usc... and Nebraska have thier fare share of representation. And all would be in top 25 by players per team.
ACTIVE NFL PLAYERS BY COLLEGE

Knock yourself out... That'll take to long for me to count out for ya... SEC schools account for about 253 players right now, I think. LSU leads with like 48 players.
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Old 11-18-2012, 03:26 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Ok Tim Tebow did so well the Broncos decided to keep him. Nope, he went to the Jets and now his own teammates don't even want him on the field. I'd call that a bust. The point is, I wouldn't count players riding the bench or playing special teams in my argument if I were you. Just silly.
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Old 11-18-2012, 03:50 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Ok Tim Tebow did so well the Broncos decided to keep him. Nope, he went to the Jets and now his own teammates don't even want him on the field. I'd call that a bust. The point is, I wouldn't count players riding the bench or playing special teams in my argument if I were you. Just silly.
So what!? You'd count players that weren't even good enough to get on said benches and special teams... If you're in, you're in. If you're not, you're not. The only silly thing is trying to discount that fact. Again, fact of the matter is, the worst player in the NFL is still better than the average player in Div 1... It's that simple. You simply have to come to terms with it.

Jimmy Johnson, who basically turned the U around and made them champions was quoted as saying that when he made to move to the Cowboys, that his squad in Miami could have put points on the Cowboys, but could never have won a game against them... This was the worst team in the league at the time against the best in Div 1 at the time. And this was said by the man who coached BOTH teams and knew both squad like nobody other...

Watch "Hardknocks" on NFL net... Every single player comes into the league saying "The game is SO much more fast, everyone is so much better, there are no weak positions on the field".

And again, with Tebow, he won games... He'll win them again. It's his play style more then his ability which is costing him a starting job. His own "player" never came to light in stating who said what, which means it could be just another attempt to sell a tired story... If reporters don't need sources, they can pretty much say whatever they want. It's not news, it's propaganda of the highest kind in public media. Don't get me wrong... I don't love Tebow, but he won games. His team in Denver lamented his leaving, the fans in Denver lamented his leaving, and the fans and most of the players in New York lament the fact that he hasn't gotten the start yet for the Jets...
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Old 11-18-2012, 04:47 PM   #39 (permalink)
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So what!? You'd count players that weren't even good enough to get on said benches and special teams... If you're in, you're in. If you're not, you're not. The only silly thing is trying to discount that fact. Again, fact of the matter is, the worst player in the NFL is still better than the average player in Div 1... It's that simple. You simply have to come to terms with it.

Jimmy Johnson, who basically turned the U around and made them champions was quoted as saying that when he made to move to the Cowboys, that his squad in Miami could have put points on the Cowboys, but could never have won a game against them... This was the worst team in the league at the time against the best in Div 1 at the time. And this was said by the man who coached BOTH teams and knew both squad like nobody other...

Watch "Hardknocks" on NFL net... Every single player comes into the league saying "The game is SO much more fast, everyone is so much better, there are no weak positions on the field".

And again, with Tebow, he won games... He'll win them again. It's his play style more then his ability which is costing him a starting job. His own "player" never came to light in stating who said what, which means it could be just another attempt to sell a tired story... If reporters don't need sources, they can pretty much say whatever they want. It's not news, it's propaganda of the highest kind in public media. Don't get me wrong... I don't love Tebow, but he won games. His team in Denver lamented his leaving, the fans in Denver lamented his leaving, and the fans and most of the players in New York lament the fact that he hasn't gotten the start yet for the Jets...
I'd count what happens in college when discussing college football.

On Tim Tebow...it's his position. He was never going to be an NFL quarterback. The sooner everyone accepts that, the sooner he can have a decent career. By the way, it wasn't "player". It was "players", plural. Regardless of how you feel about that, it was said and that's the perception. I actually do like Tim Tebow. I think he's a hard worker, and great athlete and overall just seems like a nice guy. I wish him the best, but he's a prime example of why college and NFL accomplishments don't belong in the same conversation.
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Old 11-18-2012, 11:14 PM   #40 (permalink)
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ACTIVE NFL PLAYERS BY COLLEGE

Knock yourself out... That'll take to long for me to count out for ya... SEC schools account for about 253 players right now, I think. LSU leads with like 48 players.
Alabama has 30 people in NFL
California has 32 people in NFL.

ya, i dont think this argument is working.

Also about the Heisman... The Heisman is an award that is given to a player from an elite team who was able to exploit the weaknesses of the opponent he was facing. Unfortunately, the NFL does not have weaknesses like in college football. Also, the Heisman winner might not be on an elite team because they are picked first. The fact is, if you want a higher chance to succeed in the NFL, the best place to be drafted would be in the 20-32 range.
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