Heisman Finalists - Page 2 - Football Forum - NFL, CFL & College Football Forums
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Old 12-04-2012, 07:51 AM   #11 (permalink)
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It wasn't really that hard to go to ESPN and look up the stats by ratings was it? Like I told Aggie, I think the Heisman is a joke, I've felt that way for years and can back it up by previous posts. But can you tell me why is Miller on the list? Yes he went undefeated but what exactly did he do throughout the season? His stats are average at best. And you can say that I am complaining that Geno isn't on the list but can you tell me exactly why he wasn't? He had 2 bad games, but so did Manziel, Lee, and Klein. And you can't say Geno's stats are inflated when both Jones and Klein have pretty much the same schedule. The Heisman is supposed to be about the best player, nowhere does it say he has to be the best player on one of the best teams. There is no reason why a 4 or 5 win team can't have the Heisman on their team if he's deserving.

As for Lee, Austin, and Bailey...what makes Lee a better WR than the other two? What did Lee do that they other 2 didn't? Lee had more yards than both but fewer TDs than both. Austin had more all-purpose yards than both.

Hope nobody gets me wrong with this, all the guys on the list are deserving, but if you look at how each player performed over the season, I'm not sure how you can say some of those listed are better than some that are not.
Nope, it was pretty easy and I'm sure that's exactly what you did.

I could sit here and argue with you over why this player deserves it or that one doesn't. I don't see the point though, because I don't think you even know what the Heisman is awarded for.

As for WVU and their inflated stats, I was referring to the fact that their defense couldn't stop anyone all year. It's easy to put up "impressive" numbers on bad defenses when you're constantly on the field. Even a WVU fan can't deny that. I'm not saying Geno isn't good, but what do those numbers look like with Manziel or Miller's schedule? That's why it's not about stats.
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Old 12-04-2012, 09:10 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Nope, it was pretty easy and I'm sure that's exactly what you did.

I could sit here and argue with you over why this player deserves it or that one doesn't. I don't see the point though, because I don't think you even know what the Heisman is awarded for.

As for WVU and their inflated stats, I was referring to the fact that their defense couldn't stop anyone all year. It's easy to put up "impressive" numbers on bad defenses when you're constantly on the field. Even a WVU fan can't deny that. I'm not saying Geno isn't good, but what do those numbers look like with Manziel or Miller's schedule? That's why it's not about stats.
That isn't exactly what I did, but close

I know exactly what the Heisman is for and yes, stats do play a role. I agree that it is pointless to argue this as the award itself is mostly subjective hence the popularity contest.

I hate to tell you, but OSU had a very easy road this year. Thats not saying they aren't good, but they have only played 2 teams in the top 25 and none are in the top 15. None of the teams they have played have very potetent offenses either. So you really can't say that Geno's numbers would have been worse with OSU's schedule. As for Manziel, he had very tough games against LSU, UF, and Bama. But then they had an easy road the rest of the way. Again, I'm not taking anything away from Manziel or A&M, but I think people get too caught up because of those 3 games...and Manziel lost 2 of them with very bad showings.
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Old 12-04-2012, 11:37 AM   #13 (permalink)
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That isn't exactly what I did, but close

I know exactly what the Heisman is for and yes, stats do play a role. I agree that it is pointless to argue this as the award itself is mostly subjective hence the popularity contest.

I hate to tell you, but OSU had a very easy road this year. Thats not saying they aren't good, but they have only played 2 teams in the top 25 and none are in the top 15. None of the teams they have played have very potetent offenses either. So you really can't say that Geno's numbers would have been worse with OSU's schedule. As for Manziel, he had very tough games against LSU, UF, and Bama. But then they had an easy road the rest of the way. Again, I'm not taking anything away from Manziel or A&M, but I think people get too caught up because of those 3 games...and Manziel lost 2 of them with very bad showings.
Stats play a role, obviously. My point was, all you are showing is stats. I haven't seen any reasons other than stats for why a single other player deserves to go ahead of the three finalists. Popularity contest? Maybe, but you still haven't shown that anyone deserves it any more, and until then, you're just complaining that no WVU players were in.

My point is defense. Unlike the opponents you saw, most of our conference plays defense, and I'd say the SEC definitely does. If you think WVU would have gone 12-0 or 10-2 with either schedule you're just kidding yourself. I'd question if WVU would even be bowl eligible in either. Possibly in the Big Ten, almost certainly not in the SEC. That's my point. Putting up amazing numbers means little when you look at what others have done against the same competition.
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Old 12-04-2012, 01:37 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Most of the B10 plays defense? I agree the B10 is known for their defense, but Nebraska just gave up 70pts. That same powerful defense gave up 63pts earlier in the season. UM gave up 41pts to Bama. Several teams have given up 30pts or more several times throughout the season. B10's 6 best teams give up an average of 20.55 pts/game which is not that bad. But at the same time, the B10 is not known for their offense which helps out their defensive stats. On the bottom side of the B10's defense, they average 28.63pts/game which is not all that good. You can't really say WVU benefited from playing weak defenses and would not have done as good against B10 teams when the B10 has some pretty weak defenses as well.

It's also not fair to punish an offensive player simply because the teams defense sucks. Having the offense on the field has no affect on the QBs comp%, yards/pass or rating. Yes he has more chances for TDs and yards, but there are also more chances for INTs.

I'll be the first to say none of the WVU players deserves to win the Heisman. I think that (so-called) honor should come down to Te'o and Manziel with T winning it. But I do think all 3 of the WVU players have just as much right to being finalists as do Klein, Jones, Lee, or any of the others that were nominated. The WVU players faced the same competition has all the other finalists and performed just as good if not better (obviously IMO).
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Old 12-04-2012, 01:41 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Stats play a role, obviously. My point was, all you are showing is stats. I haven't seen any reasons other than stats for why a single other player deserves to go ahead of the three finalists. Popularity contest? Maybe, but you still haven't shown that anyone deserves it any more, and until then, you're just complaining that no WVU players were in.
Besides overall record, what exactly can you show me that would show any other player deserves to be there other than the WVU players?
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Old 12-04-2012, 04:01 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Most of the B10 plays defense? I agree the B10 is known for their defense, but Nebraska just gave up 70pts. That same powerful defense gave up 63pts earlier in the season. UM gave up 41pts to Bama. Several teams have given up 30pts or more several times throughout the season. B10's 6 best teams give up an average of 20.55 pts/game which is not that bad. But at the same time, the B10 is not known for their offense which helps out their defensive stats. On the bottom side of the B10's defense, they average 28.63pts/game which is not all that good. You can't really say WVU benefited from playing weak defenses and would not have done as good against B10 teams when the B10 has some pretty weak defenses as well.

It's also not fair to punish an offensive player simply because the teams defense sucks. Having the offense on the field has no affect on the QBs comp%, yards/pass or rating. Yes he has more chances for TDs and yards, but there are also more chances for INTs.

I'll be the first to say none of the WVU players deserves to win the Heisman. I think that (so-called) honor should come down to Te'o and Manziel with T winning it. But I do think all 3 of the WVU players have just as much right to being finalists as do Klein, Jones, Lee, or any of the others that were nominated. The WVU players faced the same competition has all the other finalists and performed just as good if not better (obviously IMO).
That's why I said most. WVU and their offense is on par with Nebraska or Northwestern. I'd expect Geno Smith and the offense to have the same level of success. The problem is, their defense is on par with my mother and her bridge friends. They couldn't stop them from running the ball either.

That's all I'm saying. He has good stats, but they look much better when you're defense is giving up touchdowns constantly. AJ McCarron and Aaron Murray are the two most efficient passers in college football, and I didn't see you bring them up. You still aren't convincing anyone your Mountaineers deserve anything, including being considered as finalists.

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Besides overall record, what exactly can you show me that would show any other player deserves to be there other than the WVU players?

Why should I show you anything? I've got reality on my side, and reality says it's Manziel, Teo and Klein. You're the one saying otherwise, so the burden falls on you.
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Old 12-04-2012, 04:18 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Besides overall record, what exactly can you show me that would show any other player deserves to be there other than the WVU players?
Manziel is an absolute stud. Sure Geno Smith is good, but winning is part of being a heisman finalist. Has anyone with a losing record won a heisman? Nope.

Sure A&M lost 2 games, but keep in mind they lost by a total of 8 points to 2 top tier teams this season. If Manziel taking the reins with the A&M team and leading the way his FRESHMAN year doesn't scream heisman? Then I don't know what will.
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Old 12-04-2012, 05:30 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Nobody carried a bigger load than Collin Klein. Without him K-State wins 5 games instead of 10. I would think he is the front runner, and I haven't heard any leaks about who really is the front runner.
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Old 12-05-2012, 07:12 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Manziel is an absolute stud. Sure Geno Smith is good, but winning is part of being a heisman finalist. Has anyone with a losing record won a heisman? Nope.

Sure A&M lost 2 games, but keep in mind they lost by a total of 8 points to 2 top tier teams this season. If Manziel taking the reins with the A&M team and leading the way his FRESHMAN year doesn't scream heisman? Then I don't know what will.
I completely agree about Manziel...I've never said otherwise. He deserves to be one of the finalists without a doubt. But the biggest difference between Manziel and Smith is that Manziel had a defense. Why should WVU not having a defense count against Geno? Manziel had a very good team surrounding him and he was lucky to have very few injuries to his starters.
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Old 12-05-2012, 07:53 AM   #20 (permalink)
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That's why I said most. WVU and their offense is on par with Nebraska or Northwestern. I'd expect Geno Smith and the offense to have the same level of success. The problem is, their defense is on par with my mother and her bridge friends. They couldn't stop them from running the ball either.

That's all I'm saying. He has good stats, but they look much better when you're defense is giving up touchdowns constantly. AJ McCarron and Aaron Murray are the two most efficient passers in college football, and I didn't see you bring them up. You still aren't convincing anyone your Mountaineers deserve anything, including being considered as finalists.
Half of the B10 is not most. Also, WVU's defense as a whole is not horrible, their rush defense is ranked 41st which is not great but not that bad either. They would have the 5th best B10 rushing defense.

I still don't see how having a bad defense inflates your QB rating, yds/catch, or your comp%. If anything, the more you throw the lower those numbers usually get. Throwing more will give you more yards and TDs, but also increase your INTs, which as you can see Geno is still lower than the rest.

And you are right, I easily could have used McCarron or Murray. I was just trying to show how one QB can do just as good as another but not get consideration which leads to my point of the Heisman being a popularity contest. You look at Manziel, Klein, and Lee...they are all flashy players...that is why they get more love than others. If A&M doesn't beat Bama and Manziel had the exact same stats, there is a very good posibility he wouldn't even be a finalists.


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Originally Posted by WeWantTheVestWhy
should I show you anything? I've got reality on my side, and reality says it's Manziel, Teo and Klein. You're the one saying otherwise, so the burden falls on you.
That is a copout answer...I've at least given you stats you have given absolutely nothing. You are just like those parents who tells their kid they can't do something simply because they said so without giving any reasoning.

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