Heisman Finalists - Page 3 - Football Forum - NFL, CFL & College Football Forums
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Old 12-05-2012, 08:56 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Nobody carried a bigger load than Collin Klein. Without him K-State wins 5 games instead of 10. I would think he is the front runner, and I haven't heard any leaks about who really is the front runner.
I agree...I think a healthy Klein meant more to his team than any of the other participants. But at the same time, I don't think he is even close to being as good as most of the other participants
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Old 12-05-2012, 10:31 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Half of the B10 is not most. Also, WVU's defense as a whole is not horrible, their rush defense is ranked 41st which is not great but not that bad either. They would have the 5th best B10 rushing defense.

I still don't see how having a bad defense inflates your QB rating, yds/catch, or your comp%. If anything, the more you throw the lower those numbers usually get. Throwing more will give you more yards and TDs, but also increase your INTs, which as you can see Geno is still lower than the rest.

And you are right, I easily could have used McCarron or Murray. I was just trying to show how one QB can do just as good as another but not get consideration which leads to my point of the Heisman being a popularity contest. You look at Manziel, Klein, and Lee...they are all flashy players...that is why they get more love than others. If A&M doesn't beat Bama and Manziel had the exact same stats, there is a very good posibility he wouldn't even be a finalists.
Most is most. The worst defense in the Big Ten (Indiana) is still above three from the Big 12 (Baylor, WVU and Kansas). The Big Ten has one top ten defense (MSU), the Big 12 has zero (nobody). The Big Ten has four in the top 25 (MSU, TTUN, Wisconsin, PSU), the Big 12 has one (KSU - 24th). There are eight Big Ten teams in the top 40 (MSU, TTUN, Wisconsin, PSU, NW, OSU, Iowa, Minnesota), the Big 12 has three (KSU, TCU, Iowa State). Think I'm done there, and I don't really need to go into the SEC at all do I? As you can see, not only are most (8 out of 12) of the Big Ten defenses not bad, they are pretty damn good.

Bring up WVU's defense all you like. You can't honestly tell me they'd be able to stop the run against most of the B10 and SEC teams. Also, it's very easy to have a top run defense when your so horrible against the pass. Why would anyone even bother trying to run on them when they can just play catch all day?

I can see you've never played quarterback. When the opposing defense is bad, slow, poorly coached or simply can't match up any quarterback worth a damn can pick them apart. You find holes in the bad coverage or find the mismatches and then it's just like playing catch in the back yard. Johnny Football did that against SEC defenses. Geno Smith did against Big 12 "defenses". Huge difference between the two.

You are correct, if Manziel didn't beat Bama he probably would have been overlooked, but he did beat them. Think about that. Alabama is playing for a NC, and a RS freshman tore their "NFL defense" up. That's the type of thing they look for in a Heisman candidate, not losing five games to lesser opponents when you have tons of weapons (and WVU does). Not getting blown out by 7-5 Texas Tech. I'll give you that based on stats alone, Geno should be in the Heisman talk. Then again, so should Jordan Lynch. He has more total offense than Geno and more touchdowns as well. He isn't in the conversation for the same reason nobody from WVU is. He doesn't play a very high level of competition.

Murray lost all consideration after the SC game, and McCarron more or less cost Bama an undefeated season. They both have the stats and have played at a high level all year, but they don't really deserve to be considered in my opinion.


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That is a copout answer...I've at least given you stats you have given absolutely nothing. You are just like those parents who tells their kid they can't do something simply because they said so without giving any reasoning.
This absolutely is not a cop-out answer. If you tell us all that water won't get you wet, it's on you to tell us why. Anything else is just rambling, and that's exactly what you're doing. You still haven't given one single reason other than stats, why those three aren't the best three choices.

I can argue this with you all day, and I plan to do so as long as you continue to tell us that anyone from WVU deserves the Heisman.
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Old 12-05-2012, 01:09 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Bring up WVU's defense all you like. You can't honestly tell me they'd be able to stop the run against most of the B10 and SEC teams. Also, it's very easy to have a top run defense when your so horrible against the pass. Why would anyone even bother trying to run on them when they can just play catch all day?
WVU's pass defense is absolutely horrible and I have stated such, but that has no bearing on their rush defense. Without a doubt I think WVU would be able to control B10's running offense (but not be able to stop any of them passing). When a defense is horrible against the pass, it usually makes them bad against the run as well as they try to over-compensate. It makes no sense to say WVU's rush defense is good because everyone passes against them seeing how they still stop teams from running.


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I can see you've never played quarterback. When the opposing defense is bad, slow, poorly coached or simply can't match up any quarterback worth a damn can pick them apart. You find holes in the bad coverage or find the mismatches and then it's just like playing catch in the back yard. Johnny Football did that against SEC defenses. Geno Smith did against Big 12 "defenses". Huge difference between the two.
You are right, I never played QB. But I did play TE/DE in high school and played 3yrs of OLB at a D2 school. When you play horrible pass defenses (like you were playing WVU), then you can pad your stats a little, but WVU didn't play horrible defenses. Are OU and K-State horrible? Geno did what he did against good defenses...not great but not bad either. Manziel played against better defenses and did a great job and I never once said he didn't belong there. But you can also look at the defenses he did play against. He played against 3 good/great defensive teams in Bama, LSU,and UF. Noone else on that schedule has a top rated defense. Just because he is in the SEC does not automatically grant what he does better if you aren't going to look at who they are playing.

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You are correct, if Manziel didn't beat Bama he probably would have been overlooked, but he did beat them. Think about that. Alabama is playing for a NC, and a RS freshman tore their "NFL defense" up. That's the type of thing they look for in a Heisman candidate, not losing five games to lesser opponents when you have tons of weapons (and WVU does). Not getting blown out by 7-5 Texas Tech. I'll give you that based on stats alone, Geno should be in the Heisman talk. Then again, so should Jordan Lynch. He has more total offense than Geno and more touchdowns as well. He isn't in the conversation for the same reason nobody from WVU is. He doesn't play a very high level of competition..
You are correct, Manziel did just that and so he deserves to be there. You won't get an arguement from me on that. But just like you said, if Manziel deserves to be there, he should be there whether they beat Bama or not (saying he had the exact same stats). Geno get's punished because WVU has a horrible defense. I also have a problem with your statement of WVU having a lot of talent. Do you realize that Bailey went out midway of the 2nd against Tech, played a handful of downs against K-State and TCU. Austin missed most of the K-State game. They were also without 1st and 2nd string RB for half the season as well as short two starting OL. Against K-State they had 10 Freshman (6 true Frosh) starting on defense and had 8 starting the next 3 games. From the Tech game on, they had 4 true Frosh playing WR to fill in for Bailey and Austin. WVU doesn't have as much talent available as most of you would think.

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This absolutely is not a cop-out answer. If you tell us all that water won't get you wet, it's on you to tell us why. Anything else is just rambling, and that's exactly what you're doing. You still haven't given one single reason other than stats, why those three aren't the best three choices.

I can argue this with you all day, and I plan to do so as long as you continue to tell us that anyone from WVU deserves the Heisman.
And you have yet to give one good reason why not only Geno but several others don't deserve to be on the list. And yes, your answer is a cop-out. This isn't a court room setting where I have to prove anything. This is all opinion based and you have yet to give any supporting reasons why you think those 3 (minus the one remark for Manziel) deserve it more than anyone else. Everyone on that list are great athletes and deserve to be there, but there are other great athletes that have done just as much if not more and deserve it just the same.
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Old 12-05-2012, 03:19 PM   #24 (permalink)
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WVU's pass defense is absolutely horrible and I have stated such, but that has no bearing on their rush defense. Without a doubt I think WVU would be able to control B10's running offense (but not be able to stop any of them passing). When a defense is horrible against the pass, it usually makes them bad against the run as well as they try to over-compensate. It makes no sense to say WVU's rush defense is good because everyone passes against them seeing how they still stop teams from running.
That has a huge bearing on their rush defense. When you are trying to win a football game, you attack the opponent's weakness. I see no reason why anyone wouldn't throw the football against WVU, and everyone does because it's so easy. That makes their rushing stats look more impressive than they are. I don't really see having the 40th ranked run defense as something to brag about anyways. The fact that they are next to last against the pass makes it that much worse. Also, giving up 3.5 yards/carry isn't exactly stopping the run either. Three yards and a cloud of dust. They have a decent run defense, but not good and certainly not great.


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You are right, I never played QB. But I did play TE/DE in high school and played 3yrs of OLB at a D2 school. When you play horrible pass defenses (like you were playing WVU), then you can pad your stats a little, but WVU didn't play horrible defenses. Are OU and K-State horrible? Geno did what he did against good defenses...not great but not bad either. Manziel played against better defenses and did a great job and I never once said he didn't belong there. But you can also look at the defenses he did play against. He played against 3 good/great defensive teams in Bama, LSU,and UF. Noone else on that schedule has a top rated defense. Just because he is in the SEC does not automatically grant what he does better if you aren't going to look at who they are playing.
I wouldn't go so far as to say either is horrible. Oklahoma gave WVU almost 800 yards and nearly half a hundred points, but they aren't even in the top third of the country on defense. I wouldn't use them as an example. Kansas State does have a pretty solid defense, and they also gave up 14 points and 243 yards total. That's a Kansas State defense that was absolutely destroyed by Baylor.

The SEC has 5 defenses in the top 15. Good luck convincing anyone their defenses aren't the most dominating in the country. I don't have any desire to do a break down, but I'd bet if you broke down each defense that Smith and Manziel played, it would be staggering towards Manziel. There's no question there. You had a better argument going after the Big Ten, or at least Klein.

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You are correct, Manziel did just that and so he deserves to be there. You won't get an arguement from me on that. But just like you said, if Manziel deserves to be there, he should be there whether they beat Bama or not (saying he had the exact same stats). Geno get's punished because WVU has a horrible defense. I also have a problem with your statement of WVU having a lot of talent. Do you realize that Bailey went out midway of the 2nd against Tech, played a handful of downs against K-State and TCU. Austin missed most of the K-State game. They were also without 1st and 2nd string RB for half the season as well as short two starting OL. Against K-State they had 10 Freshman (6 true Frosh) starting on defense and had 8 starting the next 3 games. From the Tech game on, they had 4 true Frosh playing WR to fill in for Bailey and Austin. WVU doesn't have as much talent available as most of you would think.
I didn't say he should be there whether he beat Bama or not, and I don't agree with that. Beating Alabama is huge for any team, or QB. The fact is Manziel got it done. He didn't crack and play a horrible game. He didn't cost his team the football game. It was one of the biggest wins for any team this year, and that alone gets him looked at. The rest of what he's done and who he is should get him the Heisman.

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And you have yet to give one good reason why not only Geno but several others don't deserve to be on the list. And yes, your answer is a cop-out. This isn't a court room setting where I have to prove anything. This is all opinion based and you have yet to give any supporting reasons why you think those 3 (minus the one remark for Manziel) deserve it more than anyone else. Everyone on that list are great athletes and deserve to be there, but there are other great athletes that have done just as much if not more and deserve it just the same.
I didn't go through the trouble of listing a bunch of stats and complaining that so and so wasn't being considered for the Heisman. I think I have given several reasons why Geno Smith, AJ McCarron, Landry Jones, etc aren't at the top of the Heisman list. You are correct, this isn't a court room, you don't have to prove a thing and you are certainly entitled to your opinion. So are the rest of us. If you come on here and make some ridiculous claim with nothing to back it up but your "opinion", expect those of us with different opinions to call you out on it.

Someone has to win it, right? All I'm saying is that if you don't feel like one of those three should be there anymore than the players you listed, why not?


*edit*
Also, I hate the fact that you're making me talk about the SEC positively.
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Old 12-05-2012, 07:30 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Vest....you seem to make this out to be WVY against Manziel. That is not what I was going after at all. I think Manziel deserves to be there. But you can't say the SEC has 5 of the top defenses when we are talking about a player that only played 2 of those 5. It's the same arguement severals have used to say Bama played all these great SEC defenses when they were able to miss UF and USC. Only the defenses you play count...not whats left in the conference. Enough about that though.

Again I am not making this out to be just about Geno Smith. I just don't understand why some say Klein did more than Geno did? K-State won because of Klein, but they also won because they had a solid defense. When WVU won, it was only because of their offense. If you take the QBs out of the mix, what made Lee better than either Austin or Bailey. Bailey played in almost 2 games worth of time less than Lee (b/c of injury) and still had similar stats. Austin played almost an entire game less than Lee and overall had better stats. Lee is an amazing WR, but so are the other two. I can't remember the last time I saw someone able to change directions like he has. According to one site (not sure exactly how accurate they are) but Bailey leads the country in fewest dropped passes at 2. Can you give me a good reason why Lee would be that far ahead of either WVU player? Like I said before, there are other players that have just as much a gripe as those WVU players.

You may think I am complaining simply because you think I feel WVU was snubbed. But that is not the case at all. I used to say the exact same thing for the past several years on the Athlon site, and I used players other than WVU to argue why (WVU had nobody close to deserving). I just think the Heisman is a joke. I think it's a popularity contest based on exciting teams or exciting players. There is no reason the Heisman can't come from a 6-6 team. Some of the best players in the country play defense yet they get no or very little consideration because defenses aren't exciting
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Old 12-05-2012, 07:36 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Fair enough. I can buy that. You listed three guys from WVU so it made it seem like you were just upset they weren't considered. I still don't really agree with you, but I get where you're coming from at least.
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Old 12-06-2012, 06:02 AM   #27 (permalink)
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I felt llike Geno should have been listed (not so much a finalists) based on what HE did and not on what the team did, especially if you are comparing him to Klein and some of the other QBs. And at the same time, I do think Bailey and Austin are just as good a receiver as Lee is and should have been right up there with him. I'm not made/upset/ill that they aren't though. I just personally think the Heisman is too subjective and is fluenced too much by the media. They show highlight reels of flashy players on good teams and there are a lot of good/great players that do not play for the SEC or USC types
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